tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post8384472754380720085..comments2023-12-11T08:10:41.077+00:00Comments on Mark Dredge - Beer: Blockbuster BeersMark Dredgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11421095862178324693noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-5335076983592884302010-04-27T23:56:55.034+01:002010-04-27T23:56:55.034+01:00A group of 8 party goers with beer had been allowe...A group of 8 party goers with beer had been allowed to finish off their beer at the back of cab from http://minicab-london.org.uk<br /><br />So if you want to finish off your beer call these guys! lolJameshttp://minicab-london.org.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-67607899264161076882010-04-11T03:44:34.907+01:002010-04-11T03:44:34.907+01:00I wrote up about this recently for my blog. I was ...I wrote up about this recently for my blog. I was sticking up for Struise at the time. Auctions and rare beer releases is becoming an interesting issue on the beer forums. <br /><br />I am particularly annoyed that certain people wish to make huge amount of gross profit on this beer when the breweries don't. This I highlighted extensively in my blog. <br /><br />Struise are trying to cut down on this in Vleteren by offering a better and more convenient way of achieving beer than the beer being sold on Ebay at overtly inflated prices. Because of the EBay prices and that greed I am adamant a lot of bars in Belgium have decided to increas prices in order to reflect this. It wasn't too long ago before Westvleteren was less than 10 Euros.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04383343727650548268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-27887376622981116772010-04-10T14:19:18.627+01:002010-04-10T14:19:18.627+01:00I am still leaning towards BeerNut here, maybe it&...I am still leaning towards BeerNut here, maybe it's an Irish thing...<br /><br />I like limited releases but the hype surrounding some like Dark Lord are just too much. I love beer! I love drinking it and I even love searching for hard to find beers but to be forced to Queue up for hours on a certain day at a certain place is too much and likewise is paying anything more than what the beer cost when it was released.<br /><br />I might "consider" buying a limited release expensive beer as long as I am paying the same as everyone else but if people buy in bulk to sell to the highest bidder then they are no better than ticket touts and we all know what we want to do to those people!<br /><br />Now Im off to start boiling my own limited release double IPA which I will be giving to Beernut and anyone else who shows up to our monthly brewer meetings in Dublin :D You should see the Queues for that event....Reuben Gray - TaleOfAlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15948722985150698273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-31635001899072396382010-04-10T10:42:01.913+01:002010-04-10T10:42:01.913+01:00Cookie, you should write an economics blog. What a...Cookie, you should write an economics blog. What a fabulous exposition of key principles.Boakhttp://Www.boakandbailey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-60490796508742607242010-04-08T12:58:24.577+01:002010-04-08T12:58:24.577+01:00Who said it was Alan? If you are as you say spendi...Who said it was Alan? If you are as you say spending time hunting down rare beers in a market, you ought to have a working knowledge of markets, and whether a market is geared to your benefit as a punter or weighted in the interests of producers by a practice of hype and artificial scarcity?<br /><br />Behaving as a consumer, and leaving the industry cheer leading to others, you practice your hobby in its most effective manner.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-20428146199156810792010-04-08T12:22:28.269+01:002010-04-08T12:22:28.269+01:00It's not capitalism v. communism. Isn't it...It's not capitalism v. communism. Isn't it about being a savvy player in the marketplace or being a sucker. If you take into account all the costs and time related to hunting rare beer and accept them all as your hobby, that is fine. But line standing as a hobby has little to do with good beer. Same with that "erroneous celebrity recognition" hobby.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670495301758701170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-42423965799802685562010-04-08T12:17:28.922+01:002010-04-08T12:17:28.922+01:00"Beer needs some rock stars". No it does..."Beer needs some rock stars". No it doesn't.Ron Pattinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03095189986589865751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-14325492860483992482010-04-08T11:57:24.368+01:002010-04-08T11:57:24.368+01:00If you have a consumer mentality, then what you lo...If you have a consumer mentality, then what you look for are the commodities of choice at its lowest price. Pzazz, show business, artificially created scarcity, hype. It is all to your detriment. If you have a producer mentality and wish to be a cheer leader for producers, then sure, you will see the merit. Never make the mistake, Dredge, of thinking CAMRA bods like Mr Clarke represent the best interest of consumers. They represent the narrow interests of what is in effect there trade union, and appear by and large to have become producer cheerleaders. It doesn’t make them bad people, but see them for what they are.<br />If, as you say you are, you are just a guy that likes beer, and for some reason spends most of his hard earned on beer (you cannot think of anything better?), then you would obtain better value for your hard earned by taking Beer Nuts consumer approach. Leave industry producer cheer leading and hype to those it benefits, those making a profit. Accept it, because that’s capitalism and we are not communists, and profit is not evil. Only seek to maximise your own gain, in both how you aquire and use the coins of the realm you are granted. If you are savvy, there is no reason why you will not prosper.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-11577568647667899132010-04-08T11:32:28.861+01:002010-04-08T11:32:28.861+01:00There's no one rule and idea for everyone? Wel...There's no one rule and idea for everyone? Well, I don't think the question is without universals. I do think there is a champagne-like price soak going on. I also find it odd how many craft brewers spend so much time in airport departure lounges.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670495301758701170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-51816472764355224382010-04-08T09:32:24.110+01:002010-04-08T09:32:24.110+01:00There is a fine balance here between good and bad....<i>There is a fine balance here between good and bad. I also think it works differently across different drinkers and different countries. There's no one rule and idea for everyone.</i><br /><br />Couldn't agree more.<br /><br />John, I think BrewDog are a very good example of how to do rare special beers well. Should I wish to buy a bottle of Abstrakt or Tactical Nuclear Penguin, I can go to their website and do so. They aren't going to force me to walk to Fraserburgh and dance for them.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-48797965435020370952010-04-08T08:41:02.337+01:002010-04-08T08:41:02.337+01:00While I can understand the objections to this (I t...While I can understand the objections to this (I think in the UK, particulary where beer and brewing is concerend) we have always tended to be wary of too much (or even any) pzzazz. Personally I think there's room for a bit of showbiz. Looks like a certain Scottish brewery are already in on the act:<br /><br />http://www.brewdog.com/blog-article.php?id=284<br /><br />It had to be them, didn't it?John Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00132845616834779091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-15289461147261449552010-04-07T15:50:01.700+01:002010-04-07T15:50:01.700+01:00David, get to Dark Lord Day, man!!
CL, that's...David, get to Dark Lord Day, man!!<br /><br />CL, that's the simplified version...!?<br /><br />Alan, yes there are negative implications, which The Beer Nut did a great job addressing in his post. Creating super-rare beers, elevating them to their high geek status, making them difficult to obtain, etc, has knock-on negatives but I think there are enough positives overall to balance it out.<br /><br />There is a fine balance here between good and bad. I also think it works differently across different drinkers and different countries. There's no one rule and idea for everyone.<br /><br />I look forward to reading your piece - I like how one post strikes up another which strikes off another. That's one of the reasons I love reading and writing blogs.Mark Dredgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11421095862178324693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-16234466218318396092010-04-07T15:09:20.838+01:002010-04-07T15:09:20.838+01:00"Every drinker is different, some care for th..."Every drinker is different, some care for this and others don't. I think it's nice to have the choice."<br /><br />I agree, Mark, but I do think there are actually negative implications to all beer drinkers that may not be equally apparent. I think I will explore this in a post this evening my time.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670495301758701170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-5737869529896964002010-04-07T15:06:31.789+01:002010-04-07T15:06:31.789+01:00Nothing much to think about Dredge. I offer the fo...Nothing much to think about Dredge. I offer the following simplified piece of economics, using the more realistic market of Brandy, than craft beer, as such a market actually exists.<br /><br />Imagine a bottle of Cognac bottled at the time of Napoleon and once owned by Napoleon and contained in his cellar. Such a prized bottle has scarcity. Genuine scarcity, not artificially produced as such a bottle cannot be created without the use of a time machine.<br /><br />Now imagine I like necking brandy and I’m the richest brandy necker in the world, and I’m willing to pay £1million big ones to buy and neck it, and no one else is willing to pay so much to taste it., because once it’s gone its only an empty bottle. The fundamental value of that commodity is therefore £1million. That’s the maximum anyone in the world is willing to pay for it. The fundamental value doesn’t alter unless someone arrives wanting to neck it with a bigger wallet, or I change my mind and go buy some Tesco value brandy.<br /><br />However I’m not the only market participant, nor does the owner of the bottle know what its value is. There is a market of speculative investment in rare brandy, wine, art, antiquities, and historical curiosity.<br /><br />The price of the bottle is the price the seller is willing to sell it for. This is not its value. The seller can name a price or attempt to maximise one through auction. A collector may buy it for £2 million, as an investment. Now he is a fool. What makes him a fool is that he has no idea of the fundamental value. He may believe in the existence of a greater fool, and if one exists he may sell it for £3 million. The bottle may continue to be traded at numerous prices in bull and bear markets with traders making losses and gains in equal measure. The suggestion of Mackay, in his book, was that these speculative movements are based on optimism and pessimism and in and of themselves encourage and discourage speculative market entrants with equal measure. Someone may notice the bottle has changed hands at ever increasing sums, and decide to be the next person to buy it. Much as Meer was suggesting in her comment of people buying what are artificially scarce beers (because the brewer could make more of them, and make them more widely available) simply to eBay them.<br /><br />However the existence of the speculative frenzy of interest in the rarity of the commodity does not assist me, the brandy necker. Nor does optimism or pessimism determine whether I enter the market. For am in the market with the million quid, throughout. I have to wait until the bubble in speculative rare brandy investments burst, when the bull dies and the bear roars, when its price falls below fundamental value, then I can neck the grog.<br /><br />I am willing to be corrected but I believe the beer nut sees himself as a beer necker, and whilst he may accept other market participants that are also beer neckers, (though dislikes what he correctly sees as irrational frenzy despite that being the nature of man), he finds the existence of beer speculators particularly unwelcome.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-31135412004882979032010-04-07T15:03:16.334+01:002010-04-07T15:03:16.334+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-76721324767578508392010-04-07T14:32:42.047+01:002010-04-07T14:32:42.047+01:00I'm not sure I understand what the problem is ...I'm not sure I understand what the problem is here. When I was a kid, I spent years looking around for a copy of PiL's "Metal Box" in a metal box. Sure I could have gone to the mall any day and spent $11 for "Second Edition", which is the US edition of exactly the same album, and called it a day. But where would the fun have been in that? Likewise, Dark Lord is probably no better than something like Founder's RIS. I can find Founder's in about eight places within ten minutes of my home year round. Still, I'll probably drive to Indiana someday, Golden Ticket in hand, for Dark Lord Day (actually, it's less than an hour's drive from my home, I probably should...). Besides the obvious fact that it's fun to get together with a bunch of friends and fellow fanatics and enjoy some great beer, there's something to be said for the thrill of the hunt.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08577566943888080387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-28288095025129124732010-04-07T13:47:05.569+01:002010-04-07T13:47:05.569+01:00I thought this one might provoke a mixed response!...I thought this one might provoke a mixed response!! <br /><br />Meer, I agree with everything you say!<br /><br />Stu, I'll be there! I'll camp out the night before if need be.<br /><br />JC, I think you put that nicely with "the hype surrounding them could, in itself, help raise beer's profile in the public consciousness". That's why I like these one-off events. You kind of need a big show every now and again in everything.<br /><br />Beer Nut, nice reply. Hope you don't mind me replying to your blog with one f my own. I understand your response, so maybe the book, technology, etc is a little different, but I think you understand the point that if people want to be involved then they will be. And a rock star that doesn't release any albums and only plays one show a year? People will queue for days to see that and it'll be a HUGE event!<br /><br />I think these beers are deliberately limited but as Ben says, they take a lot of effort, money and time to put together. Limiting them to once a year is their choice. If it's always around then it does lose something of it's appeal, don't you think?<br /><br />It's unlikely someone will swap Bud for Old Rasputin if they've heard about Dark Lord, but they might see a bottle from 3 Floyds in the supermarket and they might buy it. They might even like it and buy another.<br /><br />Rare beers are anti-social? I disagree. They are almost more social as they are beers you buy and then want to share. Beer is the most sociable drink in the world because you drink it casually with friends. Beer Days Out are social events.<br /><br />And the Fuller's suggestion is more of something for the to use to help positively promote themselves and beer. They make enough that it can still be available in the supermarket and it's good that a cult beer like this can be bought in certain places - it's almost a bridge between everyday and super-premium. <br /><br />PF, nice points. If a beer is brewed purely for publicity then I don't support it like those brewed and held up because they truly are great beers. As for rock stars... there are certain muscians that I would class as a rock star in my eyes. There are others that I could walk past in the street and not even double-take. A person's definition of a rock star is based on their own taste, I think. From this, I think there are beer rock stars, or at least beer celebrities and these are the brewers and the people behind breweries - Sam Calagione, Garrett Oliver, Greg Koch, Mikkel... Those who care will see these guys as rock stars! <br /><br />Tandleman, apologies for the Americanisms! It's more of an American thing so my mind is thinking America when I write! I do think that extreme geekery like this is too much for us Brits, yes, hence the dialed down suggestion for Fuller's. Other breweries could do something like this - Marble, for example, could have a special on cask-only in the Marble Arch, plus some rare bottles, etc. The British way of doing it would be a lot less brash, I imagine.<br /><br />Ben, nice note on Stone. They know how to spin this kind of thing while also getting the beer out there. And big beer parties are great!<br /><br />Cooking Lager, interesting ideas... My mind is ticking trying to work it all out!<br /><br />Alan, you might need good beer at a good price but I like great beer at exhorbitant prices ;) Every drinker is different, some care for this and others don't. I think it's nice to have the choice.<br /><br />Ed, I agree with this. But these beers do seem to stand up to the hype when they are tasted away from the event, even if the hype then affects he mind some more... I've written a post about hype before and it's mind-altering capabilities!!Mark Dredgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11421095862178324693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-79260176389810987812010-04-07T13:28:57.498+01:002010-04-07T13:28:57.498+01:00I know what you mean Ed, Carling Premier was reall...I know what you mean Ed, Carling Premier was really no better than regular Carling.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-83654535175439365332010-04-07T12:57:07.835+01:002010-04-07T12:57:07.835+01:00I'm deeply suspicious of ultra-premium beers. ...I'm deeply suspicious of ultra-premium beers. If you've had to queue for hours and pay through the nose for a beer sure you're not going to say it was 'OK' or 'good', you're going to rave about how great it is. <br />It is nice to try new beers but I'm not convinced something rare and pricey is going to be that much better than something common and reasonably priced.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-53807394974196396642010-04-07T12:47:29.343+01:002010-04-07T12:47:29.343+01:00Beer needs no rock stars. People who want to sell ...Beer needs no rock stars. People who want to sell beer for reasons other than the beer need to be associated with rock-star-ness. There is an odd notion that people are not having the beer they want. We got to a major release of a good and interesting special release beer every-other week long ago. Now we apparently need non-beer factors like alleged celebrity to make special... specialer. I need no heroes. I need no (yawn) overly hopped imperial stout. I need good beer at a good price.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670495301758701170noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-85235433531203930322010-04-07T11:44:01.520+01:002010-04-07T11:44:01.520+01:00Doesn't it boil down to whether the rarity is ...Doesn't it boil down to whether the rarity is a genuine market phenomenon of demand outstripping supply or whether certain producers are rigging the market by artificially creating scarcity where none need exist?<br /><br />If the former, then it matters not whether you are for or against it, that is life.<br /><br />If the latter, it would take a strange even perverse support of the interests of producers when they fail to meet the interests of consumers and run contrary to it, to be all for it?<br /><br />As for whether hype in and of itself creates demand, and therefore as you say raises the profile of craft beer I ask whether anyone is familiar with Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds by Charles Mackay?<br /><br />It would suggest the possibility that indeed there is endless scope and many examples throughout history for people to be caught up in a speculative frenzy for any given commodity from Dutch tulip bulbs to tradable equities, especially if a secondary market exists for these rare beers. People will buy them not to drink, but to sell. How this is good for consumers of the commodity I await your reply. In a market following Greater Fool Theory, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory, neither the bull nor bear run would yield treasure for the beer enthusiast in the longer term. The bull driving up prices and the bear harming producers.<br /><br />Examples where this has resulted in a greater appreciation of the commodity traded by a greater number of people are fewer and far between. Few of your new market entrants may be interested in the deep roast chocolate notes of the pong in question.Cooking Lagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02830924433230427226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-20218099603437343912010-04-07T10:37:16.812+01:002010-04-07T10:37:16.812+01:00Ben, compared to wine, whiskey and mead big show b...Ben, compared to wine, whiskey and mead big show beer <i>is</i> easy.<br /><br />More beer in more ways from more brewers is what I'm all about. Tiny amounts of beer from some breweries for a handful of people is the opposite of that.The Beer Nuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14105708522526153528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-7596254216874327242010-04-07T10:29:53.389+01:002010-04-07T10:29:53.389+01:00Beer Nut, as a homebrewer/beer enthusiast who move...Beer Nut, as a homebrewer/beer enthusiast who moved to London from San Diego not that long ago, I really think you've got the wrong impression of this sort of event. First you rather flippantly imply that making big show beer is easy. Many of these US craft brewers would make more beer if they could, but these large specials involve huge upfront costs and frequently long term storage. It's actually rather hard to make lots of big interesting beer. To release it at is a risk to the brewer until it sells well. And if you don't want all the fuss, all these brewers make beers (many!) that are easily attainable.<br /><br />And how can you think that these beers don't create positive hype? The US craft market is growing (in <a href="http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/craft-brewing-statistics/facts" rel="nofollow">terms of sales and number of breweries</a>) to the point where last year the number of brewers has nearly recovered from prohibition. This sort of marketing (if you like to think of it that way) works. A large healthy market will almost certainly have an exclusive section. <br /><br />Lastly, if Fuller's has enough of the Vintage to sell at at Tesco after a release party, why would it get pulled? Shockingly enough, both are possible, as long as there's supply. This happens at Stone in San Diego all the time (people really come to these events for the party, and the first taste). <br /><br />Sorry this comment got a bit ranty, but frankly Big beer parties (along with style diversity) are one of the great things I miss about the US beer scene. More beer in more ways from more brewers should be something everyone wants.benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00577690418643247192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-56925135266639534172010-04-07T10:22:00.990+01:002010-04-07T10:22:00.990+01:00It's a finely poised argument this, but there ...It's a finely poised argument this, but there is something too American in the principle of this for me to come down entirely on Mark's side.(His repeated Americanisms didn't endear either). Is extreme geekery too American for us understated Brits? I would probably say so, but at the same time I find the nub of Mark's argument as stated rather persuasive in commercial and media terms at least:<br /><br />"If I had a business and I knew that I had a product good enough to only sell it once a year and on that day I’d be able to sell out of my entire stock and make money and improve my reputation, while also selling more of my other products in the process, then I’d do it."<br /><br />Who could argue with that? Well clearly it doesn't cover the points BN makes, though I'd like to think that it would be done better here and in such a way as to promote beer in an inclusive and non exploitative way. There is something rather rotten in the way it is done presently it seems.<br /><br />I like what John says too, so on balance I'm with Mark - but UK English please! (-;Tandlemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804499573827044693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8717216232742676074.post-4016015231996491202010-04-07T10:15:02.162+01:002010-04-07T10:15:02.162+01:00I agree with some of the above. I don't have a...I agree with some of the above. I don't have a problem with "special beers" as long as they are truly special and not just something that in the end is pretty much about the same I can get all year round and quite easily, not to mention a lot cheaper.<br /><br />Moreover, when that special beer doesn't have a concept behind it (season, anniversary, etc), it becomes a marketing gimmick. To a certain extent, and this applies also to many an "extreme beer", I see it a little like those "super cars" brands seem to come out with every year, you know, the ones that can go from 0 to 100 in two seconds and all that bollocks. Hardly anyone is going to buy them, and the manufacturers know it very well, and they also know that those cars will have all the petrolheads salivating and might even be mentioned in the mainstream media. It's not so much about the product itself, but the promotion of the brand.<br /><br />Oh! Yeah. And I also have an issue with those geeks that think themselves superior beings because they were able to drink THAT special beer of a very limited release.<br /><br />And to finish with this. I don't think there will ever be a brewer becoming a "rock star" in the eyes of the average consumer.Pivní Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17883511608403454943noreply@blogger.com